In this episode, Teddy talks with a homeowner that we sent a quote to remove her underground tank and install a new above ground tank. She decided to hire another contractor because he was cheaper. Once the tank was out of the ground, the contractor found a few pin holes and tried to pressure her to sign on for a soil remediation right away! He did not take any samples of the soil to determine the contamination levels to properly advise her. Please do your homework and don’t hire the cheapest contractor to remove your oil tank. The process that the contractor follows once the tank is out is more important and if not followed properly can cost you thousands of dollars in the end.
Transcript
Speaker 1:
Welcome to Tank Talk with Teddy. A podcast talking all things related to residential oil tanks. You have questions. Teddy has answered.
Teddy:
Hey guys. So I don’t typically hop on before the podcast starts, but I really felt the need to just get on real quick and explain this situation. So this client, had us quote them to remove their underground tank and install a new tank. They’re out in Phillipsburg area. So we gave them a very competitive price, we thought, and they did some price shopping. And they got somebody who was cheaper, that was more local to their house. And they were able to save a couple of hundred bucks on the project. So we didn’t hear from them after the project. Well we get a call and that contractor pulled the tank, and now there is a problem. They have holes in the tank, and there’s some contamination there. And the contractor did not follow the proper procedure. Did not take a sample of the soil.
Teddy:
That’s number one. Okay. And then he’s trying to force a remediation on them right away. That’s a tactic that they like to do. They like to pressure you to do that remediation right away, because they want to get that money out of your pocket and get that job done, and collect the balance. Okay? The proper procedure is to sample the excavation, determine the level of the contamination, and then give the client some options. That is not the process that was followed. So she called us, we are going to now give her a quote to go down to her property and perform what’s called a fixed price investigation. So we will probe around her tank. I mean, around the area where the tank was located, this way, we can get an idea of what the level of contamination is.
Teddy:
And then we’re going to provide her with a couple options to close out her case number. That is the proper procedure. We could’ve skipped this step, which is a $600 step, if the contractor pulled the sample the day he removed the tank. We would have had an idea of the levels of contamination. And then we would have been able to just explain to her over the phone, what her options are. But because he didn’t follow that procedure, she’s looking now at additional $600 to investigate it. And then we’re going to go back to her with some options on how to close out her case number. So listen up, and hope you get some value out of this call.
Speaker 3:
Hi, good afternoon. This is [inaudible 00:02:39]. I have used your services in past, and I wanted to inquire about a property that we took out a thousand gallon tank today. The guy said since there was a hole in the tank, right? They put it as a contamination.
Teddy:
Okay. Where is the house located? What county is the house located in?
Speaker 3:
How would I know? What are my next steps? Because I was not very happy and excited with the company who took out the tank. I felt like they’re over selling me.
Teddy:
Yes. Yeah unfortunately, a lot of that happens in this industry. It’s really unfortunate. If I had to take a guess, I’d say you’re out by Philipsburg, right?
Speaker 3:
Yes. [inaudible 00:03:22] literally by Philipsburg. In fact, you can call it as Philipsburg.
Teddy:
Yes. Yes. So did you use the local guy over there, ADS?
Speaker 3:
Yes.
Teddy:
Yeah. Did they take any samples when they removed the tank yesterday or today?
Speaker 3:
No. They removed it today and no, they did not. I mean, the weird thing was they just called up immediately saying that are two holes in the tank. Tiny, teeny, tiny holes. Okay? And then the inspector didn’t even look at the holes or anything. They just said, this is the DEP ID.
Teddy:
Wow, yep. Yep. This is exactly what a lot of these guys do. It’s really a shame. They really should have taken a sample. So did they explain to you that you’re allowed to keep contamination in the ground up to a certain level?
Speaker 3:
No, no, no. That’s the problem. See again I am a person who goes by rule book, right? You can’t bullshit me. But he says, oh this looks ugly. This looks bad. Come on, dude. There has to be some kind of a process in place. This is US. This is not like third world country where you don’t know what you’re talking about.
Teddy:
Yes, yes, exactly.
Speaker 3:
And I’m very upset, okay? I’m sorry. I’m like, I need to call up… I wish I had gone with you guys, but see the budget was a thousand dollars difference between your estimate and the guy’s estimate. And I don’t have any complaints on taking the tank out. It’s more of like, after the tank. And they said, “We can start tomorrow.” I’m like, Nope. Literally you should of looked at his face. The way I said, “Nope, you cannot start tomorrow.”
Teddy:
No, that’s the thing. They try to pressure you. It’s a pressure move. You know what I mean? They try to get you to do it right away, right away. You got to be careful. And then let me ask you this. Are you selling the property or anything? And what was the reason for removing the tank?
Speaker 3:
[inaudible 00:05:21] I got the property, I’m redoing it because my sister wants to move in. Okay? Unfortunately my next door neighbor is a police cop, and we had [inaudible 00:05:32] three bushes down to get it out, my oil tank. Somehow the oil tank is on a very tight spot between the two houses. So he wants to make sure. And I obviously, I don’t want an oil tank on my property, underground oil tank, no way.
Teddy:
Wow. Yeah, no, absolutely. You did the right thing. Absolutely. Yeah. I see that in our file. I guess we did send you a proposal. So for a removal and an install, and then also one for removal. So were we that much more expensive than those guys?
Speaker 3:
Yeah. You were a thousand dollars more expensive.
Teddy:
A thousand. Wow. So then they did a what? A removal and an install for $2,500 bucks?
Speaker 3:
Yes, yes.
Teddy:
Wow. See, this is the problem in this industry, they-
Speaker 3:
I had to pay-
Teddy:
Go ahead.
Speaker 3:
I had to pay a little more extra because it turned out to be 1,000 gallons, right? Instead of 500 gallons.
Teddy:
Okay. So I mean, see, this is the thing. They try to give a very low price and they want to be able to just get that tank out. And then the first thing they do is report you to the state. When a lot of times it’s not even required to report you to the state, because you can have a hundred holes in your tank. I don’t care if there’s no contamination, I’m not reporting you to the state, but that’s not how everybody works.
Speaker 3:
Yeah, no. He said smell the soil, it smells bad. So you definitely had a leak.
Teddy:
Did you smell it, that it had an odor?
Speaker 3:
Very slight odor. It wasn’t like, oh my God, I have to close my nostril. I mean, honestly see it was raining and it was pine tree freshly cut. I don’t even know whether it was petrochemicals, but it was weird. So, and I don’t know it’s the place for it, right? You’re talking to wrong person.
Teddy:
Yeah. Yeah. And he didn’t tell you that he’s taking a sample or any of that stuff, right?
Speaker 3:
No, no, no.
Teddy:
So the process he should have followed and here’s how it works. This is the way it’s supposed to be done. He should have taken one sample from the bottom of the excavation where the tank was. He runs that to the lab. He gets results within three to four business days. Then he should come back to you and tell you, okay, here’s the level of contamination. Because depending on what the level of the contamination is, then you have options. He’s not giving you any options. He’s trying to pressure you to do it right away. That’s not good businessmen.
Speaker 3:
Yeah. That’s, see he lost my business, because obviously I went to him right? You guys, and now I’m calling you back. That should tell you. My problem is, first of all, honestly, listen, I don’t know whether I have a problem or not. So it’s kind of like, no I definitely have a problem because he reported it to DEP, and the case is there, but there is a problem. Now I don’t know how to address that because I have zero clue. Google is not helping me out. And I’m like at dead ends. And I don’t want to go back to that guy no matter what.
Teddy:
Yeah. I mean, we could definitely help you out, and I’ll give you some different options. But what I would recommend since he didn’t take any samples, what I would recommend is… Now, did he backfill the hole? Is it all the way back filled up to grade and everything?
Speaker 3:
Yeah. I’m sorry to say this, I was so upset, so upset with him. I said to him, “Why don’t you leave it like that?” He said, “No, no. By law, I have to do it.” And do you know what he did? He took out and he mixed all the… I mean, that’s not the way it has to be. The way you need it, it’s like, if you dug through three layers and you made three different stages, right? You don’t mix all the three stages together and put it back, right? If there is a contamination, right, you leave the contamination on the bottom most, then you put the fresh soil. He mixed all the soil, so now if there’s contamination I have [inaudible 00:09:22].
Teddy:
Yeah, the right process is to line the hole with plastic. And then you put the clean stuff on top of the plastic. That’s the proper way to do it.
Speaker 3:
Yeah. No, he did not do anything like that. He just put it back. Dumb, dumb, dumb.
Teddy:
Well, so all right. So here’s what I would recommend. We can definitely help you out, but the first step, okay? We need to know how extensive this contamination is. And what I would recommend is have us come down. We would drill around in that area. It’s a two inch pipe that we would drill down holes, and then we would pull the soil up. And we would see what the level is of the contamination. If it’s under a certain level, then we could just write a report for the state and you’re done with it. Okay? If it’s over the-
Speaker 3:
And what is the certain level?
Teddy:
Well the initial investigation is $600. That’s what we charge for that service. And that’ll tell us-
Speaker 3:
No, no, no.
Teddy:
Go ahead.
Speaker 3:
What are the certain levels, of the soil?
Teddy:
The levels, levels. So all right, so it’s a two step levels, basically. So ideally you really want everything to be under a thousand parts per million. That’s best case. If it’s under a thousand, we don’t have to do any additional analysis at the lab, and we can close out with a report to the DEP, and they’ll give you a no further action letter. That’s best case. Okay? If it’s over a thousand parts per million, but below 5,100 parts per million technically it can stay in the ground, but it will have to pass additional analysis at the lab. So a lot of times, if it is in between those two numbers, it will pass. So really, you really want it under a thousand. Next best thing is under 5,100. Anything over 5,100 has to get remediated.
Speaker 3:
Okay. Now, can you help me out? If it’s under 51… Now I’m understanding. I don’t even know. I don’t even freaking know, as sitting here right now that it’s under thousand or it’s under 51,000 or under 6,000, okay? So sitting here, I’m asking you, how would I know, if it’s just giving you vague example, if it’s 4,000, what would be the next step?
Teddy:
So, okay. So if we come down there and drill around, and this is what I would do. I’d go down there, drill around and I would send one sample out to the lab. Let’s see what that sample is, okay? And if it comes back at 4,000, like you just said, and whenever it comes back over a thousand during this initial investigation phase, I would recommend taking a little bit of soil out, okay? Because we can go back and take our six, because you need six samples taken with the oversight from a geologist. And we don’t want to spend all that money initially, if it’s going to be over the limits. That’s why the first phase is just investigation. It really is only for your use and my use. It’s not for the DEP, it’s for you and I to figure out how extensive this cleanup is. And then we can come back to you with some pricing. But if it’s a 4,000 parts per million, that first sample I would recommend to take out a little bit of soil in that situation.
Speaker 3:
Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. So, and this has to be done by a certified licensed professional like you, or can I just do it and give it to the lab and figure it out?
Teddy:
No, it has to be done by a certified contractor. In order for us to come down there and really drill down and figure this out. Because for us, when we do that investigation, once we’re done, I’m going to be able to tell you to the dollar and it’s going to be a fixed number, exactly what it’s going to cost for you to close this out. All these other guys give you open-ended contracts. So they’re going to tell you, oh it starts at 6,000 and then it goes up from here. And then they don’t tell you what the final invoice is going to be. A lot of times they come out that $6,000 quote, the invoice is $20,000 at the end of the day. So you’ve got to be very careful. Our program, when we do our investigation for $600 bucks, I’m going to give you a fixed number. That number does not change. You make the decision before the project starts, if you want to pay. And that number will not fluctuate.
Speaker 3:
Okay. Okay. Okay. So that’s a nice thing to know.
Teddy:
Now, if he had a sample, that’s why I asked. So a lot of times we get these phone calls where another contractor pulled the tank. They took the one sample, so they followed the correct process. And then the-
Speaker 3:
No, he did not.
Teddy:
Yeah. See, and then the homeowner would call us at that time. And then I ask, “Do you have a sample?” They say, yes. “Okay. What are the results?” And then we don’t have to do this next step. So, because he didn’t do the sample, we have to now go out down there and prob around to find out.
Speaker 3:
No [crosstalk 00:14:06]. Yeah, he said you can see it from a naked eye, right? That there is an oil contamination and I’m like, okay. See you go by what they say, right?
Teddy:
Well, of course, he’s trying to tell you that because he wants you to do the most expensive job, which is a remediation, but you may not even need that. You might be able to just sample it and write a report. And a lot of times it’s a quarter of the price of a remediation. A typical remediation, just so you understand, if we find that we have to take soil out, just so you understand cost. Typically on average they are about 8 to 15,000. So it’s very expensive. If I can prove that that soil is under the limits, I could close out something for $4,500 bucks. I could close the whole job, it can be finished.
Speaker 3:
Oh okay. I mean $4,500. I’m not able to understand. Okay, you need to repeat again, what did you just say?
Teddy:
Okay. So if we find, okay, so step one is for us to come down there and probe around to determine the level of contamination. That’s step one. Once we have the level, then I’m going to come back to you with options. I’m going to say, here are your options. Option one is going to be for us to basically, to come back and take the six samples that are required. And that’s something like that with the report is about $4,500 bucks.
Speaker 3:
Oh, okay. Okay. Okay. Depending on the readings, right?
Teddy:
Exactly. Exactly. We need that initial reading.
Speaker 3:
Depending on the first sample.
Teddy:
Exactly.
Speaker 3:
Okay. Let me do one thing. Sorry, I came back to my house and my little one is literally all over me, because he didn’t see me since morning. You there?
Teddy:
Yes, I’m here. Yep.
Speaker 3:
Hello?
Teddy:
Yeah, yeah I’m here. Can you hear me?
Speaker 3:
Okay. Yeah, I can hear you. Give me some time, okay? Let me, I’m not available tomorrow and day after tomorrow, I want to meet the person who will be doing the sampling. Let me circle back to you Friday, first thing around 11:00 ish, okay? And then schedule a time for Monday or Tuesday.
Teddy:
Okay. So yeah, I’m going to email you right now, I have all your info. I’ll email you the proposal for the $600 bucks. Once you sign it, it takes about four business days for us to get out there on our calendar. So just keep that in mind. I’m going to email it to you, so you have it in your inbox. If you want to call Friday, that’s fine, but it’ll be about four business days out in our schedule.
Speaker 3:
Okay. Perfect. Perfect. Thank you. Thank you.
Teddy:
All right, thank you for calling. Take it easy. Bye. Bye.
Speaker 3:
Bye. Bye.